Chiswick and Bleakley debate immigration on TV and Streaming
Jeff Berkowitz: You could sign on to that program?
Professor Hoyt Bleakley [University of Chicago]: I could sign on to that...
Professor Barry Chiswick: I couldn’t.
Jeff Berkowitz: And, the reason why?
Professor Chiswick [University of Illinois, at Chicago]: Well, low skilled immigration, whether it’s legal or illegal, has consequences for the economy. And, the group that pays the greatest price for low-skilled immigration are low-skilled natives. And, most low skilled workers in the United States were born in this country.
************************************
Professor Chiswick: The majority of low-skilled Americans are not minority, but, as you said, minorities are disproportionately represented among the low-skilled.
********************************************
Professor Chiswick:... One of the factors that has contributed has been the very large immigration of both legal and illegal low-skilled workers. And, this has widened inequality in the United States. And we view increasing inequality as something that is less desirable.
Jeff Berkowitz: Let me just stop you, for a second. Professor Bleakley, how do you respond to that? You’re not in favor of more inequality, are you?
Professor Bleakley: “Now, the [University of] Chicago response is that “you are in favor of as much inequality as there needs to be.”
***************************************************
Professor Barry Chiswick, Distinguished Professor of Economics, University of Illinois at Chicago and Professor Hoyt Bleakley, Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business, answer an avalanche of questions on the "Public Affairs," program from show host and executive legal recruiter Jeff Berkowitz about who benefits and who is hurt by immigration, whether the current situation with illegal immigration is a consequence of the 1986 immigration legislation, how much legal and illegal immigration differ, whether the nation, as a whole, benefits from legal and/or illegal immigration and the political impact of the likely immigration reform legislation to pass Congress and much, much more.
*****************************************************
"Public Affairs," is featuring Economics Professors Bleakley and Chiswick this week in 35 Chicago Metro suburbs [See, below, for a detailed suburban airing schedule] on Comcast Cable; this coming Monday night [May 22] through-out the City of Chicago on CANTV, Cable Ch. 21 at 8:30 pm; And, right now, on the "Public Affairs," podcast page on your computer [See here].
The "Public Affairs," podcast page gives you a choice of more than 20 different episodes of “Public Affairs," in addition to the show with Professors Chiswick and Bleakley.[See here]. The podcast page also includes a show with Kevin White, the Republican nominee for the 5th Cong. Dist. seat currently held by Cong. Rahm Emanuel (D-Chicago) [the show with White will air next week on the suburban edition of "Public Affairs,"], Mayoral Candidate Bill Dock Walls, State Senate Republican Nominee [27th Dist.] Matt Murphy; a recent joint press conference with Senator Obama [D-Illinois] and Congresswoman Bean [D-Barrington] dealing with, among other issues, Iran, Iraq, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and tax cuts, Senator and Republican nominee for State Treasurer Christine Radogno, the Republican nominee and Democratic incumbent in the 8th CD, David McSweeney and Congresswoman Bean, respectively; Tony Peraica, Republican nominee for Cook County Board President;
[See here].
*******************************************************
This program is very timely. President Bush spoke last night on television regarding the issue of immigration. This speech will be followed up with efforts by the U. S. Senate to pass legislation on the immigration issue [the House has already done so] and, if that is done, the Senate and House conferees will meet to try to reach agreement on compromise immigration reform legislation that is acceptable to the House and Senate conferees. The legislation may pass prior to Memorial Day and if so, a conference agreement may occur shortly after Congress resumes it’s session in June, 2006.
**********************************************************
Professor Hoyt Bleakley [University of Chicago, GSB]:... Adam Smith talks about the benefits of specialization. Now, specialization is something that we have used for centuries to improve the productivity of everything we do. What does that mean in this case? Well, when you think about who we are as a people, and how we can raise our living standards—a way to do that is not necessarily to bring in people who look exactly like us, but bring in people who are different-- who have things that they can bring to the table that we don’t have. And, in practice, what that has meant in terms of immigration is that we brought in people through legal methods who have relatively high skills. People like doctors and computer programmers and nurses. Right? And, we’ve all benefited from that. Maybe not all the doctors, because they get competed away a little bit, but, as a society, we’ve benefited. And then, on the other end of the skill distribution, often through less formal means, we’ve brought in people with very low skills, because that’s not a very large fraction of our population. So, from the perspective of increasing our productivity by bringing in factors that complement us, in a broad brush-stroke sense, our policy is doing the right thing.
Jeff Berkowitz: Moving the country forward. So, in general, you might favor that legislation [something like McCain Kennedy] notwithstanding that we might have, in five to seven years, twenty million illegal immigrants, new illegal immigrants in this country. You might favor that? Am I getting that right?
Professor Bleakley: I might. It would have to have more credible means of policing it right, so that we don’t—I mean I completely agree with, endorse, what Barry [Chiswick] said, that we need to have better enforcement mechanisms [interior and border control].
Jeff Berkowitz: So, in a sense, you would have maybe twenty million more legal—you might actually open up the legal immigration, acknowledge that you’d have twenty million more [immigrants], have a border control, have penalties for employers [employing illegal immigrants]. So, have twenty million more relatively unskilled laborers come in from Mexico, but now we [would] know who they are. We’d keep track of them. They wouldn’t necessarily be on the path to citizenship, but they’d be working in one form or another in the United States. Am I getting it right? Is that sort of-
Professor Bleakley: That’s roughly right. Now, the question-
Jeff Berkowitz: You could sign on to that program?
Professor Bleakley: I could sign on to that. Now, the question of-
Professor Barry Chiswick: I couldn’t.
Jeff Berkowitz: And, the reason why?
Professor Chiswick [University of Illinois, at Chicago]: Well, low skilled immigration, whether it’s legal or illegal, has consequences for the economy. And, the group that pays the greatest price —for low-skilled immigration are low-skilled natives. And, most low skilled workers in the United States were born in this country.
Jeff Berkowitz: And, by “low-skilled natives,” you mean low-skilled United States citizens.
Professor Chiswick: Low-skilled United States citizens, yes, that’s what I meant. People born in the United States.
Jeff Berkowitz: Who often are not necessarily minority, but minorities may be disproportionately represented in that low-skilled group.
Professor Chiswick: The majority of low-skilled Americans are not minority, but, as you said, minorities are disproportionately represented among the low-skilled.
Jeff Berkowitz: So, a large number of whites will be negatively affected by this immigration that we’re talking about-
Professor Chiswick: But, a larger fraction of, let’s say, African-Americans.
Jeff Berkowitz: A larger fraction of them, as a group-
Professor Chiswick: That’s right. And, what we’ve seen over the last twenty- twenty-five years has been a widening in the gap between the earnings of high-skilled workers, and lower-skilled workers. And, there are a number of factors that have contributed to this widening gap. One of the factors that has contributed has been the very large immigration of both legal and illegal low-skilled workers. And, this has widened inequality in the United States. And we view increasing inequality as something that is less desirable.
Jeff Berkowitz: Let me just stop you, for a second. Professor Bleakley, how do you respond to that? You’re not in favor of more inequality, are you?
Professor Bleakley: “Now, the [University of] Chicago response is that “you are in favor of as much inequality as there needs to be.”
Jeff Berkowitz: There needs to be some inequality to have the right incentives for-
Professor Bleakley: Sure. I tell my students all the time “would you be sitting here in class listening to me drone on about micro-economics, if there weren’t this higher paycheck waiting for you at the end.”
Jeff Berkowitz: Which will mean more inequality, but it is good because people are being productive.
Professor Bleakley: It promotes investments in learning about microeconomics and other things.
Jeff Berkowitz: But, this particular kind of inequality that Professor Chiswick’s talking about—this immigration that we are talking about negatively impacts low-skilled workers, makes it harder for them to advance. They are U. S. citizens. I assume you’re saying on equity grounds—Help U. S. citizens more before you help Mexicans who are outside the United States?
Professor Chiswick: Well, there are those equity grounds. But, there are also the effects on the tax transfer system. The depressing of the wages of all low-skilled workers results in greater expenditures by the government on various programs that are targeted towards low-skilled workers.
Jeff Berkowitz: So, emergency rooms-
Professor Chiswick: Emergency rooms-
Jeff Berkowitz: Which would be where illegal… immigrants may seek healthcare.
Professor Chiswick: But, also-
Jeff Berkowitz: Education, which is provided-
Professor Chiswick: People born in the United States, if their incomes are lower, they are more likely to now become eligible for Medicaid, for food stamps, for the free school lunch program.
Jeff Berkowitz: So, citizens in the U. S. now are moving into that dependency area because they can’t work.?
Professor Chiswick: They are more likely to be receiving government transfers. It may not be that they can’t work, but for the work that they do, they get lower wages than they would have if it weren’t for the large, low-skilled immigration.
Jeff Berkowitz: Professor Bleakley, you are nodding your head. You’re in agreement on that?
Professor Bleakley: I would never deny that if you bring in someone who is a substitute for me, that you are going to probably reduce my wage. On the other hand, if you drew up a list of the causes of why inequality has gotten greater, larger, whatever, in this country in the past thirty years, I am not sure that immigration would make the top ten. ************************************************
Public Affairs, with Professor Barry Chiswick, Distinguished Professor of Economics, University of Illinois at Chicago and Professor Hoyt Bleakley, Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business, was recorded on May 7, 2006 and is airing on the Suburban edition of Public Affairs this week [week of May 15] and on the City of Chicago edition of Public Affairs on Monday night, May 22 at 8:30 pm on Cable Ch. 21. See, below, for a detailed, regular suburban airing schedule for Public Affairs . The show with Professors Chiswick and Bleakley is available, right now, as a video podcast at the Public Affairs Cinema Complex, along with more than twenty other shows, which are also airing there. [See here].
****************************************************
In 25 North Shore, North and Northwest suburbs, the show airs tonight in its regular Tuesday night time slot: 8:30 pm on Comcast Cable Ch. 19 or 35, as indicated, below.
In 10 North Shore suburbs, the show is airing in its regular airing slot at 8:30 pm on Comcast Cable Ch. 19 this week on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, as indicated, below.
******************************************************
The episode of Public Affairs, featuring Professors Chiswick and Bleakley airs tonight:
at 8:30 pm on Comcast Cable Channel 19 in Buffalo Grove, Elk Grove Village, Hoffman Estates, parts of Inverness, Lincolnwood, Morton Grove, Niles, Northfield, Palatine, Rolling Meadows and Wilmette
And at 8:30 pm on Comcast Cable Channel 35 in Arlington Heights, Bartlett, Glenview, Golf, Des Plaines, Hanover Park, Mt. Prospect, Northbrook, Park Ridge, Prospect Heights, Schaumburg, Skokie, Streamwood and Wheeling.
and this Wednesday and Friday night at 8:30 pm on Comcast Cable Channel 19 in Bannockburn, Deerfield, Ft. Sheridan, Glencoe, Highland Park, Highwood, Kenilworth, Lincolnshire, Riverwoods and Winnetka.
****************************************************
A draft of the above partial transcript of the Public Affairs show with Professors Chiswick and Bleakley was prepared by Amy Allen, who also does research for “Public Affairs,” and has her own political blog [See here].
************************************
Jeff Berkowitz, Show Host/Producer of "Public Affairs," and Executive Legal Recruiter doing legal search can be reached at JBCG@aol.com
******************
Professor Hoyt Bleakley [University of Chicago]: I could sign on to that...
Professor Barry Chiswick: I couldn’t.
Jeff Berkowitz: And, the reason why?
Professor Chiswick [University of Illinois, at Chicago]: Well, low skilled immigration, whether it’s legal or illegal, has consequences for the economy. And, the group that pays the greatest price for low-skilled immigration are low-skilled natives. And, most low skilled workers in the United States were born in this country.
************************************
Professor Chiswick: The majority of low-skilled Americans are not minority, but, as you said, minorities are disproportionately represented among the low-skilled.
********************************************
Professor Chiswick:... One of the factors that has contributed has been the very large immigration of both legal and illegal low-skilled workers. And, this has widened inequality in the United States. And we view increasing inequality as something that is less desirable.
Jeff Berkowitz: Let me just stop you, for a second. Professor Bleakley, how do you respond to that? You’re not in favor of more inequality, are you?
Professor Bleakley: “Now, the [University of] Chicago response is that “you are in favor of as much inequality as there needs to be.”
***************************************************
Professor Barry Chiswick, Distinguished Professor of Economics, University of Illinois at Chicago and Professor Hoyt Bleakley, Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business, answer an avalanche of questions on the "Public Affairs," program from show host and executive legal recruiter Jeff Berkowitz about who benefits and who is hurt by immigration, whether the current situation with illegal immigration is a consequence of the 1986 immigration legislation, how much legal and illegal immigration differ, whether the nation, as a whole, benefits from legal and/or illegal immigration and the political impact of the likely immigration reform legislation to pass Congress and much, much more.
*****************************************************
"Public Affairs," is featuring Economics Professors Bleakley and Chiswick this week in 35 Chicago Metro suburbs [See, below, for a detailed suburban airing schedule] on Comcast Cable; this coming Monday night [May 22] through-out the City of Chicago on CANTV, Cable Ch. 21 at 8:30 pm; And, right now, on the "Public Affairs," podcast page on your computer [See here].
The "Public Affairs," podcast page gives you a choice of more than 20 different episodes of “Public Affairs," in addition to the show with Professors Chiswick and Bleakley.[See here]. The podcast page also includes a show with Kevin White, the Republican nominee for the 5th Cong. Dist. seat currently held by Cong. Rahm Emanuel (D-Chicago) [the show with White will air next week on the suburban edition of "Public Affairs,"], Mayoral Candidate Bill Dock Walls, State Senate Republican Nominee [27th Dist.] Matt Murphy; a recent joint press conference with Senator Obama [D-Illinois] and Congresswoman Bean [D-Barrington] dealing with, among other issues, Iran, Iraq, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and tax cuts, Senator and Republican nominee for State Treasurer Christine Radogno, the Republican nominee and Democratic incumbent in the 8th CD, David McSweeney and Congresswoman Bean, respectively; Tony Peraica, Republican nominee for Cook County Board President;
[See here].
*******************************************************
This program is very timely. President Bush spoke last night on television regarding the issue of immigration. This speech will be followed up with efforts by the U. S. Senate to pass legislation on the immigration issue [the House has already done so] and, if that is done, the Senate and House conferees will meet to try to reach agreement on compromise immigration reform legislation that is acceptable to the House and Senate conferees. The legislation may pass prior to Memorial Day and if so, a conference agreement may occur shortly after Congress resumes it’s session in June, 2006.
**********************************************************
Professor Hoyt Bleakley [University of Chicago, GSB]:... Adam Smith talks about the benefits of specialization. Now, specialization is something that we have used for centuries to improve the productivity of everything we do. What does that mean in this case? Well, when you think about who we are as a people, and how we can raise our living standards—a way to do that is not necessarily to bring in people who look exactly like us, but bring in people who are different-- who have things that they can bring to the table that we don’t have. And, in practice, what that has meant in terms of immigration is that we brought in people through legal methods who have relatively high skills. People like doctors and computer programmers and nurses. Right? And, we’ve all benefited from that. Maybe not all the doctors, because they get competed away a little bit, but, as a society, we’ve benefited. And then, on the other end of the skill distribution, often through less formal means, we’ve brought in people with very low skills, because that’s not a very large fraction of our population. So, from the perspective of increasing our productivity by bringing in factors that complement us, in a broad brush-stroke sense, our policy is doing the right thing.
Jeff Berkowitz: Moving the country forward. So, in general, you might favor that legislation [something like McCain Kennedy] notwithstanding that we might have, in five to seven years, twenty million illegal immigrants, new illegal immigrants in this country. You might favor that? Am I getting that right?
Professor Bleakley: I might. It would have to have more credible means of policing it right, so that we don’t—I mean I completely agree with, endorse, what Barry [Chiswick] said, that we need to have better enforcement mechanisms [interior and border control].
Jeff Berkowitz: So, in a sense, you would have maybe twenty million more legal—you might actually open up the legal immigration, acknowledge that you’d have twenty million more [immigrants], have a border control, have penalties for employers [employing illegal immigrants]. So, have twenty million more relatively unskilled laborers come in from Mexico, but now we [would] know who they are. We’d keep track of them. They wouldn’t necessarily be on the path to citizenship, but they’d be working in one form or another in the United States. Am I getting it right? Is that sort of-
Professor Bleakley: That’s roughly right. Now, the question-
Jeff Berkowitz: You could sign on to that program?
Professor Bleakley: I could sign on to that. Now, the question of-
Professor Barry Chiswick: I couldn’t.
Jeff Berkowitz: And, the reason why?
Professor Chiswick [University of Illinois, at Chicago]: Well, low skilled immigration, whether it’s legal or illegal, has consequences for the economy. And, the group that pays the greatest price —for low-skilled immigration are low-skilled natives. And, most low skilled workers in the United States were born in this country.
Jeff Berkowitz: And, by “low-skilled natives,” you mean low-skilled United States citizens.
Professor Chiswick: Low-skilled United States citizens, yes, that’s what I meant. People born in the United States.
Jeff Berkowitz: Who often are not necessarily minority, but minorities may be disproportionately represented in that low-skilled group.
Professor Chiswick: The majority of low-skilled Americans are not minority, but, as you said, minorities are disproportionately represented among the low-skilled.
Jeff Berkowitz: So, a large number of whites will be negatively affected by this immigration that we’re talking about-
Professor Chiswick: But, a larger fraction of, let’s say, African-Americans.
Jeff Berkowitz: A larger fraction of them, as a group-
Professor Chiswick: That’s right. And, what we’ve seen over the last twenty- twenty-five years has been a widening in the gap between the earnings of high-skilled workers, and lower-skilled workers. And, there are a number of factors that have contributed to this widening gap. One of the factors that has contributed has been the very large immigration of both legal and illegal low-skilled workers. And, this has widened inequality in the United States. And we view increasing inequality as something that is less desirable.
Jeff Berkowitz: Let me just stop you, for a second. Professor Bleakley, how do you respond to that? You’re not in favor of more inequality, are you?
Professor Bleakley: “Now, the [University of] Chicago response is that “you are in favor of as much inequality as there needs to be.”
Jeff Berkowitz: There needs to be some inequality to have the right incentives for-
Professor Bleakley: Sure. I tell my students all the time “would you be sitting here in class listening to me drone on about micro-economics, if there weren’t this higher paycheck waiting for you at the end.”
Jeff Berkowitz: Which will mean more inequality, but it is good because people are being productive.
Professor Bleakley: It promotes investments in learning about microeconomics and other things.
Jeff Berkowitz: But, this particular kind of inequality that Professor Chiswick’s talking about—this immigration that we are talking about negatively impacts low-skilled workers, makes it harder for them to advance. They are U. S. citizens. I assume you’re saying on equity grounds—Help U. S. citizens more before you help Mexicans who are outside the United States?
Professor Chiswick: Well, there are those equity grounds. But, there are also the effects on the tax transfer system. The depressing of the wages of all low-skilled workers results in greater expenditures by the government on various programs that are targeted towards low-skilled workers.
Jeff Berkowitz: So, emergency rooms-
Professor Chiswick: Emergency rooms-
Jeff Berkowitz: Which would be where illegal… immigrants may seek healthcare.
Professor Chiswick: But, also-
Jeff Berkowitz: Education, which is provided-
Professor Chiswick: People born in the United States, if their incomes are lower, they are more likely to now become eligible for Medicaid, for food stamps, for the free school lunch program.
Jeff Berkowitz: So, citizens in the U. S. now are moving into that dependency area because they can’t work.?
Professor Chiswick: They are more likely to be receiving government transfers. It may not be that they can’t work, but for the work that they do, they get lower wages than they would have if it weren’t for the large, low-skilled immigration.
Jeff Berkowitz: Professor Bleakley, you are nodding your head. You’re in agreement on that?
Professor Bleakley: I would never deny that if you bring in someone who is a substitute for me, that you are going to probably reduce my wage. On the other hand, if you drew up a list of the causes of why inequality has gotten greater, larger, whatever, in this country in the past thirty years, I am not sure that immigration would make the top ten. ************************************************
Public Affairs, with Professor Barry Chiswick, Distinguished Professor of Economics, University of Illinois at Chicago and Professor Hoyt Bleakley, Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business, was recorded on May 7, 2006 and is airing on the Suburban edition of Public Affairs this week [week of May 15] and on the City of Chicago edition of Public Affairs on Monday night, May 22 at 8:30 pm on Cable Ch. 21. See, below, for a detailed, regular suburban airing schedule for Public Affairs . The show with Professors Chiswick and Bleakley is available, right now, as a video podcast at the Public Affairs Cinema Complex, along with more than twenty other shows, which are also airing there. [See here].
****************************************************
In 25 North Shore, North and Northwest suburbs, the show airs tonight in its regular Tuesday night time slot: 8:30 pm on Comcast Cable Ch. 19 or 35, as indicated, below.
In 10 North Shore suburbs, the show is airing in its regular airing slot at 8:30 pm on Comcast Cable Ch. 19 this week on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, as indicated, below.
******************************************************
The episode of Public Affairs, featuring Professors Chiswick and Bleakley airs tonight:
at 8:30 pm on Comcast Cable Channel 19 in Buffalo Grove, Elk Grove Village, Hoffman Estates, parts of Inverness, Lincolnwood, Morton Grove, Niles, Northfield, Palatine, Rolling Meadows and Wilmette
And at 8:30 pm on Comcast Cable Channel 35 in Arlington Heights, Bartlett, Glenview, Golf, Des Plaines, Hanover Park, Mt. Prospect, Northbrook, Park Ridge, Prospect Heights, Schaumburg, Skokie, Streamwood and Wheeling.
and this Wednesday and Friday night at 8:30 pm on Comcast Cable Channel 19 in Bannockburn, Deerfield, Ft. Sheridan, Glencoe, Highland Park, Highwood, Kenilworth, Lincolnshire, Riverwoods and Winnetka.
****************************************************
A draft of the above partial transcript of the Public Affairs show with Professors Chiswick and Bleakley was prepared by Amy Allen, who also does research for “Public Affairs,” and has her own political blog [See here].
************************************
Jeff Berkowitz, Show Host/Producer of "Public Affairs," and Executive Legal Recruiter doing legal search can be reached at JBCG@aol.com
******************
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